Forum Activity for @shopdad

I have found Richard Ash's book "Fret positioning fret guide" a tremendous help cutting fret slots. I have made several fret boards and repaired a few that weren't cut properly. The distance between two frets is important but the slots must be perfectly vertical. Hand cutting is fine but must be done when a person has the time to do it right. You are correct, Wally, the distance of each fret from the nut is crucial. Mr. Ash makes it clear in his book. He checks fret distance, over all distance and distance to nut. I'll admit, I'm a bit OCD, as its called, when cutting my fret boards. If the individual slots are off, by the time you get to the last cut it can be off enough to make a difference. With all this being said, let's not neglect string quality and cleanliness. As pointed out in earlier posts the type of wood is important too. Oh, Keep sound hole size and location in the formula too. Ha! I built a "CanJo" using a 1 Gal. lacquer thinner can. I never thought I would hear so much resonance come out of an old can. Anyone is welcome to let me know if all this is off the subject of temperament, but, from what I have learned since this thread began it all helps. 

Actually, it should be the distance of each fret from the nut, not the spacing between the frets. Otherwise an error at one fret throws all of the higher notes off.

Well that video is way over my head but if I understand what the guy is talking about is when the instrument maker is setting up the location of the frets on the fret-board,The distance from one to the other in the relationship To each other the distance ???

Yes, I just did some research on temperament and really got a head full of information. Yes, much is over my head,  but very interesting. I'll just stick to my tuning method and enjoy what I love, .the sweet song of the dulcimer. Going back and forth from guitar to dulcimer keeps me on my toes. Keeps the cobwebs cleared from the old grey cells

Very nice instruments, Shopdad. I just worry too much about temperament. I follow this philosophy.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

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OK, now you guys have spurred my interest. It's time for some deep diving into temperament. Thanks Dan, all this is helping and explains a bit more each time. How long have you guys been dealing with this? Do makers of all string instruments understand the temperament. Skip, I use the note frequency on my instruments rather than just an eyeball on the balance point. I try to get the frequency as close as possible. Yes, the material in which the instrument is made is definitely a factor. I am careful not to install too much bracing inside just for that purpose. The tone/resonance on my homebuilt tear drop is about the same as the kit made from walnut. My next build will be another hourglass design so I may reopen this discussion with you. Maybe I'll have more knowledge about it and not sound as ignorant with my statements and questions :)   Here's a pic of the kit walnut Cedar Creek and my handmade teardrop mostly poplar and some oak bracing, Hand carved eagle head stock is also oak.

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Discussions on temperament can get very involved.

Temperaments are directly related to note frequency, not note names. This is because a notes frequency, for instance 'A', can be an 435 or 445, or larger spreads. In order to set a starting point, the note frequency of 'A' is designated as the base reference point. Another part of temperament is that they define the spacing between adjacent notes in a diatonic scale. There are many more pieces to the temperaments puzzle. 

A 'D4' is a 'D4' across all instruments, it may sound a bit different because of the material used to produce the note [frequency]. Just compare the note of the bass 7th fret to the open melody on a DAd tuned MD.

A D4 on an equal temperament MD may not sound/have the same frequency as a D4 on a differently tempered MD.

I haven't noticed any difficulty tuning my guitar. Totally different even if same note as Dulcimer. I chalk it up to the resonance of the guitar vs, the dulcimer. Diatonic to chromatic I guess.

That makes sense. I don't believe I have perfect pitch. Mine is more like "pitch the perfect" and depend on my tuner. That's when I get fussy. I believe that also explains why some of the notes that show up when I do a pull off sound a bit off. I only hear it in certain chords or songs. Probably just some 83 year old ears too.

With regard to your tuners vs. your dulcimers, remember that each tuner design uses a mathematical model when making pronouncements. Few, if any, tell you which temperament has been used. The ones with settings for chromatic-guitar-violin-etc. might not use the same model for all of them.

Tune until you are happy, and let the rest of the world roll by.

The question of A=440 or A=437, or Bb = whatever is a separate issue. Traditionally, "real orchestras and bands" tune by ear to whatever the oboe player sounds, not just sticking to some pitch fork or reed used before coming on stage. Having "perfect pitch" can be a real handicap.

"They aint' no perfect intonation" as most of my instruments staples are set by ear. (something close to  Pythagorean and sometimes called Diatonic Temperament) Each of your electronic tuners are off by a few cents just as each the temperaments are. Like Wally said the slight "off" gives the over all tone a wonderful depth. If it sounds good to you, it's all good. If memory serves me correctly, the folks on the other side of the pond have a sweet tooth for quarter mean tone? 

Wow! every time I think I'm making progress something new pops up. This is very interesting Wally. Let me see if I'm in the right thought pattern of this information. I have 5 dulcimers I have one tuned CGC so I can sing the music in the lower key. Two of my dulcimers are DAD. Even though the instruments are tuned differently (one C and One D) I would believe they should be the same bass on my cell phone tuner. They are very close but off enough if it were the same instrument I would tune to the correct note. My question is, does this fall into what you are discussing in the video? Oh! its ok if I'm "all wet" on this comment.  This may help too. The DAD is a Cedar Creek kit build and the other tear drop is homemade and tuned CGC. I'm what you may call "OCD" when it comes to cutting my fret boards and it shows up when I tune them. It just bothers me when I, for instance, tune the bass string one on D, Shouldn't it be as close when I use tuner on the "C" on my tear drop? If it were the same instrument going from one string to the other I would be correcting it on my tuner. Hope this makes sense. 

I just took another run through the linked video. 

If you primarily play in isolation, this may be something you want to consider. 

If you play with others, remember that they will probably be in different temperaments. In addition, using "pulls" and "slides" will change the temperaments. Others may be slightly out of tune by a few cents on one string. Using a electronic tuner for each string will give a different temperament than using the tuner on one and doing the others by ear.

As a former physics major, I find it interesting. When I'm a player, I use the tuner to set my bass string, then go by ear or trust the 4th fret.

I believe that the richness of an orchestral sound comes from the instruments being slightly out of phase and precise frequency.

If you want to re-fret one of your instruments, the spacing can be determined with 

https://www.thekimerers.net/brian/YAFCalc/YAFCalc.html

Equal temperamant. vs just intonation.

When I was surfing the web looking for different tunings I stumbled across this thought I would pass it on kind of interesting anyhow take care of everybody 

Thanks again everybody you're the best 

Lots of folks know the North Georgia Foothills Dulcimer Association from the Fall Festival in November, but they also organize a couple of smaller annual events, and this year they have invited me to offer three online workshops on May 2.  You can find out more, including how to register at https://www.ngfda.com/dusty-thorburn-day .

Although the three workshops are organized in increasing order of the complexity of the arrangements being taught, there will be something for every player in each of them.  For example, while beginners might concentrate on accurate fingering to convey the basic melody, more advanced players can work on embellishments, adding "filler" strums or arpeggiation, and so forth.  Many of the arrangements will also come with a more complex version, a harmony version, or a version in another key, with the goal of providing something of interest to everyone regardless of playing level.

This is going to be a lot of fun, and I hope some FOTMD members might join the festivities! Perhaps I'll see you on my computer screen then!

Send a personal message with any questions.

Neal Hellman's dulcimer chord book published by Mel Bay used to be the standard.  I don't change tunings that much, so I never had a use for it, but you can still find new and used copies all over the place.  Here it is directly from Mel Bay: https://www.melbay.com/Products/94662/dulcimer-chord-book.aspx .  It was printed in a long, narrow format to fit in a dulcimer case.

This is an e-book, so you have to download and print it out yourself. However, it has everything you need to know about mountain dulcimer chords. https://www.melbay.com/Products/93858EB/dulcimer-chord-encyclopedia.aspx?classificationSId=D09

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

https://folkcraft.com/products/neal-hellman-dulcimer-chord-book

 Can anyone suggest a good book for chords? hopefully with more than just Dad, A book that has a good combination of different tuning and with more than just three or four Combinations of a particular court .

Hope this makes sense 

One week from today, folks-- 28 March 2026!  The spread of the mountain dulcimer through the US and to many places around the world has enriched the dulcimer world in so many ways.    

Happens to the best of us!  (and to me as well, lol)

I must admit that I was so overwhelmed looking at the tunings that I never even noticed that there were tunings listed at the beginning of each song.

Thank you, both!!!

Henry VIII, ("Pastime with Good Company") here I come!

Great sleuthing and great logic, Dusty!

@johnnyb, I am pretty sure that C5 is a typo.  It is supposed to be D above middle C, not C above middle C.  If you look at the arrangements for that tuning (Welladay, O Mistress Mine, All in a Garden Green, Now Robin Lend Me Thy Bow) the tab clearly says ADD for the open strings.

Additionally, she details exactly what string gauges she uses, and the lightest is .009.  You could probably still use a .010 if you wished.

(I didn't even remember that I had this book squirreled away in a file cabinet, but there it was!)

Just because a string calculator suggests a thin or heavy string doesn't mean it would be practical. The calculators are useful, but they have no actual brain or hands. A string calculator might theoretically suggest a .000001 string to reach some impossibly high note... even though such a string is not even for sale. Or it would suggest a wound string as heavy as a double bass might use to reach some crazy low note... and such a string would be too heavy to even install on a dulcimer, much less play.

I have found that melody strings any thinner than .009 tend to break very easily... so much so that i won't go thinner than .009 anymore.
And even with that, if my instrument's vsl scale is anything longer than 26.5", I personally will not put on a string thinner than .010 . That's not due to any scientific calculation son my part, but simply because i have broken several .009 melody strings that way, and it gets downright annoying.  

Is that for the C5?

The string calculator referenced suggested a string diameter of .005".

27.5

I have to admit that I was getting dizzy trying to make sense of all those tunings.    I don't think we can fully answer your question without knowing the VSL of your dulcimer.  You might consult the Strothers String Gauge Calculator to determine the ideal string gauges.  

A string should be able to tune one whole note up or down, so I would suggest establishing the ideal string gauge for G#3 for the bass, D4 for the middle, and C#4 for the melody.  With gauges established for each of those, you should be able to tune to the other tunings.  With one exception.  That c5 may indeed need a different string.  I don't believe a string can be adjusted for a whole octave.

And it's always a good idea to have extra strings on hand and to wear protective goggles when you retune .

I recently picked up a copy of Lorraine Lee Hammond's Barley Break: An Elizabethan Songbook with Arrangements for Appalachian Dulcimer.

In this book (and The Magic Dulcimer) she uses four different tunings. I will list them in order from bass to treble using the scientific notation (as in D4 A3 d3):

Tuning I

G3

D4

d4

Tuning II

G3

D4

c4

Tuning III

A3

D4

c5

Tuning IIII

A3

D4

c4

The question: In order to not repeat the first mistake I made, tuning up from D3A3d4 to  D3A3a4 (instead of tuning correctly to D3A3a3) and breaking the thinnest string, what would be the best way to actually tune these? It doesn't have to be in a specific key- they would be tuned to each other. 

The bass strings in all tunings go down, so not an issue.

The middle strings all go up from A3 to D4, which is only 3 notes.

The treble strings stay the same or go down except for Tuning III, where it goes up to C5, which is a 6-note increase.

Can the middle strings handles going up 3 notes?

Tuning III scares me...

Such an elegant instrument!  

That fret wire does indeed look like what is referred to as "jumbo frets," an upgrade that usually costs more (probably $200-$300 these days).  They are likely stainless steel and last longer than regular fret wire.  But also, because they are bigger, they require less finger strength and allow you to play much faster and with ease.  That's another reason I do not think this is a kit.  It looks like a very nice instrument.

Strumelia,

It is a bit of a mystery. The case doesn't go with the dulcimer but will be used.

 Our group teaches dulcimer lessons at the community college to the 55+ group (continuing education for seniors) and one of out players, is donating this dulcimer. We try and set the beginner  players up with loaners, so they are able to try a number of different dulcimers - to better understand what maybe will work best for them - size, tone, shape, etc. This one has a really easy touch & great action. I cleaned it up & changed the strings & checked for any buzzing but was unable to figure anything about it - other then what I could see. I was just trying to find out as much as I could about it, before placing it in the collection for the students. 

thanks for your thoughts,

marg

No idea who made it, but they did a very skilled job in cutting those elegant soundholes. They are indeed F style holes (as one sees in a violin). However, I wouldn't call these 'classic' F holes myself- these are particularly delicate and graceful. Lovely. The (guitar?)frets seem a bit on the heavy side to me, or perhaps it's just that this is a slightly shorter scale dulcimer than the standard 26-28" vsl?

The instrument seems to have been very well cared for.
Like Dusty, the quality and uniqueness here does not really suggest to me a kit or anything put out by a 'low end' brand, despite being in a cheap case. 

Dusty, 

Yes, nothing. 

thanks

Yes, DPN is still alive and well. The latest issue came out last month.  In fact, Fiona, the editor, is a member here at FOTMD .

That is an elegant looking dulcimer, Marg.  I cannot identify the builder, but it appears to have an ebony overlay on the fretboard, which I would not expect if it were made from a kit, though certainly I could be wrong.  Have you tried looking inside the sound holes, perhaps with a flashlight?  There might be some indication of the builder there.

After looking at many soundholes, it looks like the classic "f" sound hole.

Anyone recognize the sound holes?  Is the dulcimer maybe  a kit or a low end brand name? Flathead, teardrop, looks like a birch back.  

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